“Please also know the hesitancy to engage in this debate. It is implied that Dr. Leininger and Delon are fishing for some gotchya statement in the line of questioning. Something that could be used by a media outlet to slant a story. Something that could bring notoriety. Or something that an activist judge could use to ignore jurisprudence and use a political argument to set an unconstitutional precedent.”
--Trust that instinct. You’re absolutely correct. There’s no need to engage with those who are uninterested in altruistic discourse and who seek nothing other than to box you into a position or statement they can then use against you. I respect Professor Delon and feel that he is sincere in his intellectual inquiry. But be very wary when engaging with the other mentioned Professor.
Look in any phone book, there are thousands of Christian churches . Millions in the nation, the largest denomination of all Americans is Christian. Not only because our forefathers brought it here - but also because it evolved to fit our nations uniqueness. John Wesley for example got here soon after Georgia was an original colony, came to convert Indians, couldn’t even lead local Christians and went back to England a failure. But while back in England, he began to preach to the poor and downtrodden and drunks and the Great Awakening he started jumped the pond - he comes John Wesley’s ideas into the USA highly successful in increase in Christians ! All this when we were English citizens, we were supporting each other in betterment and love - as Christian’s. Circuit riding John Wesley types.
It’s a Christian nation. America is a Christian nation. The world knows India is Hindu. Nobody argues it. The celebrations express it! Same for Ramadan among Muslim nations. We today as a nation celebrate Easter and Christmas, marry in church ceremonies, and are buried with ministers or pastors of the Christian faith officiating. That’s a majority. That’s a Christian nation.
Anyone in America is free to reject their roots. We don’t harm atheists or agnostics. But they are not a founding part of our heritage and Christ is. Our entire justice depends on Judeo-Christianity and our form of democracy let’s you choose freedom. Even from God.
However, the minority over here - the nonbelievers - assume so much power ! For example, a Christian Eddie Speir is sharing the power to fire or hire or change the entire curriculum of a failing school that has 1/2 the students it needs to be viable; the minority goes mad as a wet hen, offended. They refuse to acknowledge Eddie Speir has power. They chastise him, even demand “ any prayer you say must contain all religions not to offend” - and the person making that statement? that person does not understand democracy works through majority rule with minority rights - her type of anger and silly suggestion is a tyranny of the minority; overstepping the bounds of a fair system. Why? She is not in charge, but pretends to be.
A single prayer by a single trustee has become a bright light. It reveals how far out of line, how disrespectful a certain type of person has become in the UNITED STATES. Many exist but they don’t want a “ name” attached, so given the circumstances I’m calling them “ the minority,” as proven through American heritage and Florida population. Minority cannot rule the majority. Not in a Democratic nation.
I grew up Christian. In my high school years a student read a devotional over the loud speaker - a different student each morning. It let us all think about goodness and love, early each morning, daily. It wasn’t proselytizing. It was normal, and I’m sorry that something so kind and so simple has become all caught up in what I can only call the misuse of freedom in a nation where majority rule, minority rights is the backbone of our faith in our Constitution.
Understand your position. It’s not your decision. Eddie Spier represents the majority. Behave and let the man pray.
It’s one prayer. A sinkhole won’t devour the meeting, neither will alligators, nor lightening strike protesters wearing a cross between a Taliban and Puritan mock-up, although the majority of Floridians realize such heavy cloth’s a sure-fire heat stroke in the hot sun and humidity of SW Florida.
Interesting thoughts you offer here. I might quibble with your belief that America was founded as a Christian nation. Some of the founders were certainly Christian, but many others (like Washington and Jefferson) held varying degrees of deist views. Notice that there are no references to Christianity in the founding documents, but there are references in the Declaration of Independence to “Nature’s God,” and the “Creator” which are both very deist terms for God.
At any rate, I had a friend when I was younger who advocated for more prayer in schools and other public places. Until he moved to Utah and found himself in the religious minority.
For me, my faith is supposed to be something that makes the world a better place and embodies my experience of what I understand the love of God to be. It doesn’t use coercion to force people into submission. If I am surrounded by people who all want to pray, then let’s pray. If there are some people around me who say that it makes them uncomfortable, my understanding of God doesn’t suggest that a Christian response is to say to them, “Screw you; we’re praying.”
Rob- the absurdity of “ Screw you, I’m praying” suggests that you view Christians as rude and further, can you in truth claim “screw you” as a motive for prayer? Really?
A Christian prayer in public in a Christian country is the same as the Muslims’ morning calls to prayer. Nobody in India dare silence Hindu prayer because in a billion people there might be others ( non-Hindu) offended. Of course not . Yet this is what it has come to here : if there’s one tiny group of Satanists, they too must be invited to pray !
No. Satanists are not the religion or ethics out of which grew our Constitutional government . Christians are. America was and still is a Christian country.
What does that mean? A Christian should without controversy be allowed to pray. But no. We are in dangerous territory. Someone from the argumentative minority brings up Deism or Jefferson’s Bible or suggests Washington wasn’t Christian(meanwhile in 1776, throughout the states Christianity was the main faith.) To imply we were not a Christian nation because a few intellectuals were interested in Deism is either ignorance or prevarication. For example Jefferson, an intellectual, studied many isms besides Deism - Buddhism for one, just as his active intellect studied architecture, classical music, Roman law, and Italian wine production (which he carried through at Monticello.)
It’s lunacy to attach such a mind only to Deism not to mention an entire nation’s faith to one small group of thinkers.
Someday Americans won’t be at the mercy of a minority whose thesis is that their own power exceeds the majority’s rights.
Why not respect Iran - a Persian civilization as old as the Biblical Euphrates River and only one country within the world’s largest religion - Islam. You - on the other hand - in a Christian nation - insist every type of religion has an equal right to public prayers because “ we don’t want to become Iran.” What distorted logic!
Why not honor the heritage of your own country? It seems in trying to insult Mr. Speir you needed to give Satanic worship a prayer spot at New College because “ that’s fair and equal.” Just how far do you want to carry your absurdist points?
I did not involve myself in this trustee’s Substack to debate absurdists. I did it to respect an honest, Christian trustee to whom power has been given.
It’s an affront to that power, these ill-advised complaints. Why not accept that good will come out of this. No college enrolling 700 students when it needs 1500 plus can stay open. The return on the costs is too enormous.
So rather than close doors forever, these trustees are given the task to establish a true honors college - provide a classical education, one that demands serious interaction with the Western heritage which is the knowledge that created the world in which we live. I am very supportive. Why aren’t you?
Such childish stubborn diatribes. Such inanity proves that to save our Republic - not just New College- requires youth to wake up ! To pursue a rigorous, highly disciplined education derived from our European, Greek and Roman tradition - the source of all ideas within our Constitution and the summation of our unique way of life.
Our heritage is amazing - one long process of illumination still evolving out of thousands of years of wisdom that - if ignored or replaced by a popularity contest of wild abandon - will in a few centuries create a Dark Ages out of which there may be no exit. It’s that serious.
Our new trustees are embarking on an endeavor to halt regressions so foul, so distant from our heritage they’re shameful. Such a reawakening needs an initiating prayer. Eddie Speir would like to provide it.
I believe I''ve commented on an earlier post of yours regarding your use of the term "woke." Without wishing to repeat, I would simply suggest that you try an experiment: remove this word from your articulating vocabulary. Think through what is troubling you without summoning via verbal magic a host of qualms, dark implications, and anxieties hovering about this vague coinage. Use your words instead of nonce terms. You may find that clarity, logic, and structured thinking are better served by your own efforts to say precisely what you mean than by a politician's fiat language.
I wanted to bring up a couple of points that you mention in your argument here. You define intelligence as “simultaneously holding two apparent contradictions in your mind and seeking a deeper truth.” I wish you were able to apply this definition in other contexts. It doesn’t seem like this is an affordance that you are willing to offer to those you label as “woke,” who affirm that is it possible to simultaneously believe that America can be both a shining beacon to the world and also mired in a history that is riddled with sin in its treatment of black and brown people. For Governor DeSantis, to acknowledge the latter is to reject the former. Like you, I would suggest that intelligence means being able to hold these two ideas in concert. Higher education should be a space where learners are allowed to engage in dialogue about how we reconcile these ideas. In Florida, however, this kind of “intelligent” discourse is currently in the process of being removed.
It’s almost as if there is an impulsive search for another grievance to build a narrative of oppression against white Christians that can only be solved by tearing down American freedoms and institutions (such as New College). Tearing down is easy and intoxicating and very popular with many people. Building up, however, starts with dialogue.
Floridians don’t want boards of trustees that train our students to seek to be offended, identify as victims, and become activists that dismantle spaces of higher education like New College and destroy our institutional freedoms.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I hold both "America's sins" and a "shining beacon" to be true. I am confident that DeSantis holds both to be true as well. There is a lot of hysterical hyperbole being extrapolated from unwarranted fear in the minds of some educators and administrators right now. I believe that this will be worked out in time.
From a previous article:
We need to be working from a commonly understood set of words and understanding. Wokeness is a religion. There are many very fine attributes of Wokeness that we all share. There is also religious dogma associated with this religion that should not be a part of NCF’s curriculum. Additionally, there are forced pledges of fealty through intimidation and coercion that should not only be eliminated but also made to be a part of NCF’s curriculum on how to fight against it.
Once Wokeness is defined as a religion, I suggest creating a committee to define these three categories further.
Aspects of wokeness that are shared values. These aspects should be incorporated and included in our curriculum. They should also be supported in extra-curricular programs and activities. Diversity and inclusion, for example, we should not and clearly would not throw out any curriculum that describes the beautiful aspects of America’s diversity. This should be celebrated, and America’s triumphs in creating this melting pot should be recognized. And the shared values that unite us should be highlighted as the glue that holds us together.
Aspects of wokeness that are dogmatic. These aspects should not be incorporated into a curriculum nor supported through school-sponsored programs or activities. One example of a dogmatic expression of wokeness is the assertion that America and its institutions are systemically racist and must be torn down.
Aspects of wokeness that are, in essence, pledges of fealty. These aspects should be actively fought against; furthermore, curriculum, programs, and activities should be made that express the dangers of these aspects and equips students to fight against them in defense of Florida’s constitution. Through either coercion or intimidation, these pledges of fealty are antithetical to Floridians' shared values. One such example of a pledge of fealty is the demand for woke pronouns. These aspects
I appreciate your willingness to engage in dialogue on this. I find it unfortunate that online discussion so rarely lends itself to civility, which I think is severely lacking in our public conversations these days.
While there may be hysterical hyperbole in some circles, the reality I live with includes the fact that members of the board of trustees at my daughter’s university have suggested firing the entire faculty and only rehiring those who “fit the new business model.” In addition, I teach future educators at a public university in Florida where I have been told that I am not allowed to talk about a concept referred to as “unconscious bias” with students or I could be fired. It doesn’t feel hyperbolic to suggest that intelligent discourse on these topics is being stifled.
I have read the article you reference here. I wonder if there is any space to have a dialogue about how we define “woke” and “wokeness.” Personally, I’m not a huge fan of the word. It seems like it is most often used as a pejorative meant to shut down conversation, rather than engaging with someone to genuinely hear their thoughts and perspective. It seems as though you are using an image of the most extreme radical you can imagine and using that person to define what you mean by the term. That might be like me saying that all conservatives are January 6th insurrectionists who believe in dismantling democracy as we know it. A better starting place might be to talk to some people with whom you disagree in a civil manner and ask to hear their perspective.
Eddie, if it is perfectly legal to open in prayer and there is no harm unto non-believers to simply hear a prayer from a particular religion without participating, then surely a prayer from the Satanic Temple should be fine.
Great post, Trustee Speir.
I only have one comment. When you say:
“Please also know the hesitancy to engage in this debate. It is implied that Dr. Leininger and Delon are fishing for some gotchya statement in the line of questioning. Something that could be used by a media outlet to slant a story. Something that could bring notoriety. Or something that an activist judge could use to ignore jurisprudence and use a political argument to set an unconstitutional precedent.”
--Trust that instinct. You’re absolutely correct. There’s no need to engage with those who are uninterested in altruistic discourse and who seek nothing other than to box you into a position or statement they can then use against you. I respect Professor Delon and feel that he is sincere in his intellectual inquiry. But be very wary when engaging with the other mentioned Professor.
Look in any phone book, there are thousands of Christian churches . Millions in the nation, the largest denomination of all Americans is Christian. Not only because our forefathers brought it here - but also because it evolved to fit our nations uniqueness. John Wesley for example got here soon after Georgia was an original colony, came to convert Indians, couldn’t even lead local Christians and went back to England a failure. But while back in England, he began to preach to the poor and downtrodden and drunks and the Great Awakening he started jumped the pond - he comes John Wesley’s ideas into the USA highly successful in increase in Christians ! All this when we were English citizens, we were supporting each other in betterment and love - as Christian’s. Circuit riding John Wesley types.
It’s a Christian nation. America is a Christian nation. The world knows India is Hindu. Nobody argues it. The celebrations express it! Same for Ramadan among Muslim nations. We today as a nation celebrate Easter and Christmas, marry in church ceremonies, and are buried with ministers or pastors of the Christian faith officiating. That’s a majority. That’s a Christian nation.
Anyone in America is free to reject their roots. We don’t harm atheists or agnostics. But they are not a founding part of our heritage and Christ is. Our entire justice depends on Judeo-Christianity and our form of democracy let’s you choose freedom. Even from God.
However, the minority over here - the nonbelievers - assume so much power ! For example, a Christian Eddie Speir is sharing the power to fire or hire or change the entire curriculum of a failing school that has 1/2 the students it needs to be viable; the minority goes mad as a wet hen, offended. They refuse to acknowledge Eddie Speir has power. They chastise him, even demand “ any prayer you say must contain all religions not to offend” - and the person making that statement? that person does not understand democracy works through majority rule with minority rights - her type of anger and silly suggestion is a tyranny of the minority; overstepping the bounds of a fair system. Why? She is not in charge, but pretends to be.
A single prayer by a single trustee has become a bright light. It reveals how far out of line, how disrespectful a certain type of person has become in the UNITED STATES. Many exist but they don’t want a “ name” attached, so given the circumstances I’m calling them “ the minority,” as proven through American heritage and Florida population. Minority cannot rule the majority. Not in a Democratic nation.
I grew up Christian. In my high school years a student read a devotional over the loud speaker - a different student each morning. It let us all think about goodness and love, early each morning, daily. It wasn’t proselytizing. It was normal, and I’m sorry that something so kind and so simple has become all caught up in what I can only call the misuse of freedom in a nation where majority rule, minority rights is the backbone of our faith in our Constitution.
Understand your position. It’s not your decision. Eddie Spier represents the majority. Behave and let the man pray.
It’s one prayer. A sinkhole won’t devour the meeting, neither will alligators, nor lightening strike protesters wearing a cross between a Taliban and Puritan mock-up, although the majority of Floridians realize such heavy cloth’s a sure-fire heat stroke in the hot sun and humidity of SW Florida.
Hey Dale,
Interesting thoughts you offer here. I might quibble with your belief that America was founded as a Christian nation. Some of the founders were certainly Christian, but many others (like Washington and Jefferson) held varying degrees of deist views. Notice that there are no references to Christianity in the founding documents, but there are references in the Declaration of Independence to “Nature’s God,” and the “Creator” which are both very deist terms for God.
At any rate, I had a friend when I was younger who advocated for more prayer in schools and other public places. Until he moved to Utah and found himself in the religious minority.
For me, my faith is supposed to be something that makes the world a better place and embodies my experience of what I understand the love of God to be. It doesn’t use coercion to force people into submission. If I am surrounded by people who all want to pray, then let’s pray. If there are some people around me who say that it makes them uncomfortable, my understanding of God doesn’t suggest that a Christian response is to say to them, “Screw you; we’re praying.”
Rob- the absurdity of “ Screw you, I’m praying” suggests that you view Christians as rude and further, can you in truth claim “screw you” as a motive for prayer? Really?
A Christian prayer in public in a Christian country is the same as the Muslims’ morning calls to prayer. Nobody in India dare silence Hindu prayer because in a billion people there might be others ( non-Hindu) offended. Of course not . Yet this is what it has come to here : if there’s one tiny group of Satanists, they too must be invited to pray !
No. Satanists are not the religion or ethics out of which grew our Constitutional government . Christians are. America was and still is a Christian country.
What does that mean? A Christian should without controversy be allowed to pray. But no. We are in dangerous territory. Someone from the argumentative minority brings up Deism or Jefferson’s Bible or suggests Washington wasn’t Christian(meanwhile in 1776, throughout the states Christianity was the main faith.) To imply we were not a Christian nation because a few intellectuals were interested in Deism is either ignorance or prevarication. For example Jefferson, an intellectual, studied many isms besides Deism - Buddhism for one, just as his active intellect studied architecture, classical music, Roman law, and Italian wine production (which he carried through at Monticello.)
It’s lunacy to attach such a mind only to Deism not to mention an entire nation’s faith to one small group of thinkers.
Someday Americans won’t be at the mercy of a minority whose thesis is that their own power exceeds the majority’s rights.
“A Christian prayer in public in a Christian country is the same as the Muslims’ morning calls to prayer.“
Precisely. We would like America to not be a theocracy as Iran is.
Why not respect Iran - a Persian civilization as old as the Biblical Euphrates River and only one country within the world’s largest religion - Islam. You - on the other hand - in a Christian nation - insist every type of religion has an equal right to public prayers because “ we don’t want to become Iran.” What distorted logic!
Why not honor the heritage of your own country? It seems in trying to insult Mr. Speir you needed to give Satanic worship a prayer spot at New College because “ that’s fair and equal.” Just how far do you want to carry your absurdist points?
I did not involve myself in this trustee’s Substack to debate absurdists. I did it to respect an honest, Christian trustee to whom power has been given.
It’s an affront to that power, these ill-advised complaints. Why not accept that good will come out of this. No college enrolling 700 students when it needs 1500 plus can stay open. The return on the costs is too enormous.
So rather than close doors forever, these trustees are given the task to establish a true honors college - provide a classical education, one that demands serious interaction with the Western heritage which is the knowledge that created the world in which we live. I am very supportive. Why aren’t you?
Such childish stubborn diatribes. Such inanity proves that to save our Republic - not just New College- requires youth to wake up ! To pursue a rigorous, highly disciplined education derived from our European, Greek and Roman tradition - the source of all ideas within our Constitution and the summation of our unique way of life.
Our heritage is amazing - one long process of illumination still evolving out of thousands of years of wisdom that - if ignored or replaced by a popularity contest of wild abandon - will in a few centuries create a Dark Ages out of which there may be no exit. It’s that serious.
Our new trustees are embarking on an endeavor to halt regressions so foul, so distant from our heritage they’re shameful. Such a reawakening needs an initiating prayer. Eddie Speir would like to provide it.
I believe I''ve commented on an earlier post of yours regarding your use of the term "woke." Without wishing to repeat, I would simply suggest that you try an experiment: remove this word from your articulating vocabulary. Think through what is troubling you without summoning via verbal magic a host of qualms, dark implications, and anxieties hovering about this vague coinage. Use your words instead of nonce terms. You may find that clarity, logic, and structured thinking are better served by your own efforts to say precisely what you mean than by a politician's fiat language.
I wanted to bring up a couple of points that you mention in your argument here. You define intelligence as “simultaneously holding two apparent contradictions in your mind and seeking a deeper truth.” I wish you were able to apply this definition in other contexts. It doesn’t seem like this is an affordance that you are willing to offer to those you label as “woke,” who affirm that is it possible to simultaneously believe that America can be both a shining beacon to the world and also mired in a history that is riddled with sin in its treatment of black and brown people. For Governor DeSantis, to acknowledge the latter is to reject the former. Like you, I would suggest that intelligence means being able to hold these two ideas in concert. Higher education should be a space where learners are allowed to engage in dialogue about how we reconcile these ideas. In Florida, however, this kind of “intelligent” discourse is currently in the process of being removed.
It’s almost as if there is an impulsive search for another grievance to build a narrative of oppression against white Christians that can only be solved by tearing down American freedoms and institutions (such as New College). Tearing down is easy and intoxicating and very popular with many people. Building up, however, starts with dialogue.
Floridians don’t want boards of trustees that train our students to seek to be offended, identify as victims, and become activists that dismantle spaces of higher education like New College and destroy our institutional freedoms.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I hold both "America's sins" and a "shining beacon" to be true. I am confident that DeSantis holds both to be true as well. There is a lot of hysterical hyperbole being extrapolated from unwarranted fear in the minds of some educators and administrators right now. I believe that this will be worked out in time.
From a previous article:
We need to be working from a commonly understood set of words and understanding. Wokeness is a religion. There are many very fine attributes of Wokeness that we all share. There is also religious dogma associated with this religion that should not be a part of NCF’s curriculum. Additionally, there are forced pledges of fealty through intimidation and coercion that should not only be eliminated but also made to be a part of NCF’s curriculum on how to fight against it.
Once Wokeness is defined as a religion, I suggest creating a committee to define these three categories further.
Aspects of wokeness that are shared values. These aspects should be incorporated and included in our curriculum. They should also be supported in extra-curricular programs and activities. Diversity and inclusion, for example, we should not and clearly would not throw out any curriculum that describes the beautiful aspects of America’s diversity. This should be celebrated, and America’s triumphs in creating this melting pot should be recognized. And the shared values that unite us should be highlighted as the glue that holds us together.
Aspects of wokeness that are dogmatic. These aspects should not be incorporated into a curriculum nor supported through school-sponsored programs or activities. One example of a dogmatic expression of wokeness is the assertion that America and its institutions are systemically racist and must be torn down.
Aspects of wokeness that are, in essence, pledges of fealty. These aspects should be actively fought against; furthermore, curriculum, programs, and activities should be made that express the dangers of these aspects and equips students to fight against them in defense of Florida’s constitution. Through either coercion or intimidation, these pledges of fealty are antithetical to Floridians' shared values. One such example of a pledge of fealty is the demand for woke pronouns. These aspects
I appreciate your willingness to engage in dialogue on this. I find it unfortunate that online discussion so rarely lends itself to civility, which I think is severely lacking in our public conversations these days.
While there may be hysterical hyperbole in some circles, the reality I live with includes the fact that members of the board of trustees at my daughter’s university have suggested firing the entire faculty and only rehiring those who “fit the new business model.” In addition, I teach future educators at a public university in Florida where I have been told that I am not allowed to talk about a concept referred to as “unconscious bias” with students or I could be fired. It doesn’t feel hyperbolic to suggest that intelligent discourse on these topics is being stifled.
I have read the article you reference here. I wonder if there is any space to have a dialogue about how we define “woke” and “wokeness.” Personally, I’m not a huge fan of the word. It seems like it is most often used as a pejorative meant to shut down conversation, rather than engaging with someone to genuinely hear their thoughts and perspective. It seems as though you are using an image of the most extreme radical you can imagine and using that person to define what you mean by the term. That might be like me saying that all conservatives are January 6th insurrectionists who believe in dismantling democracy as we know it. A better starting place might be to talk to some people with whom you disagree in a civil manner and ask to hear their perspective.
Eddie, if it is perfectly legal to open in prayer and there is no harm unto non-believers to simply hear a prayer from a particular religion without participating, then surely a prayer from the Satanic Temple should be fine.